Puppy Mills create puppies for commercial/retail distribution.  You could probably eat off the floor at Hunte Corp. but that doesn’t mean they aren’t a PM.

People impulse buy pet store puppies and many of these dogs are dumped at shelters/rescues when the newness wears off.  These “rescue” dogs then become the recommended “first option - adoption” when seeking a pet.  Meanwhile reputable small-scale hobby breeders are reviled for contributing to pet overpopulation instead of those producers who deliver their puppies by the semi-truck load.

I did not mention size at all.  I mentioned those who are feeding the retail distribution stream.

Interesting reading in the court docs.  Guess it’s not how many lawyers you have, but the quality.  Looks like some of the filed complaints wouldn’t have gotten past a law student’s RICO 101 professor. 

And look…the court even aligns with HW on advice to HSUS:

“The Court previously made clear to Plaintiffs that their pleading obligation under
Rule 8(a) “‘requires more than labels and conclusions, and a formulaic recitation of the
elements of a cause of action will not do.’””

In other words….“just because you put a label on something and say it over and over again, does not make it true”

Doesn’t take a lawyer to see a certain level of frustration in the court’s second response.

Right on, David. The number of dogs in a kennel means nothing as far as whether the animals are cared for and properly socialized.  Nothing as far as whether they’re happy.  Sufficient money can hire enough people to provide the socialization and physical care puppies, sires and dams need in every large commercial breeding operation.

Tell me: if a pet shop’s puppies are playful and social—- how could they possibly have ever been mistreated or uncared for?  And how could their mothers have been mistreated? The pups would have been basket cases from the get-go because of poor parenting!

No, I would not buy a pet store pup. But plenty of people do because they do not want to jump through a bunch of hoops to get a pet from a shelter, rescue, or breeder.  They do not want a background check done to verify their ability to care for a dog. They do want a contract with a money-back guarantee… and they do want a nice puppy that will grow into a nice adult dog for their family.  They get that from good pet shops.

David - If you are looking for an example of high standards for commercial dog breeding I suggest you look at the Missouri Blue Ribbon Kennel Program. Missouri is the only state that has such a program.  http://mda.mo.gov/animals/ACFA/blueribbon/

It is a very rigorous program. Here is the file showing the inspection form—http://mda.mo.gov/animals/pdf/brk_inspection.pdf

Looks pretty impressive to me. Even has requirements for socializing the puppies and continuing education requirements—for the kennel owner, not the puppies.

It would be better for these folks to set standards - HSUS really has no actual experience taking care of animals.

David, he did not say that puppy mills are based on size and size alone.  He said that the person on television stated it was three things:  large, filthy and has substandard conditions.  It’s not just “large”.

Does anyone know if Dr. Beck was listed on her clinic’s main staff page before last night?  (Couldn’t help noticing she’s not on that page now. http://www.southernazvets.com/specialists.html)

Doesn’t Pacer make life easier these days? 

Thanks for the live blogging last night!

First of all I would like to start by saying there is nothing morally wrong or illegal about raising a pure breed puppy for sale. There is a demand for pure breed puppies that are simply not available in shelters.  Most Pet Stores sell puppies with micro-chips for lifetime identification and can be traced to the owner of the pet or to the store where they came from.  The fact is that most dogs that end up in shelters have no identification and cannot be reunited with their owners.  If you pay the prices you have to pay for a pet in a retail store the likelihood of simply abandoning this pet is much less just because of the investment it represents.  By far the majority of the Petlands do an excellent job in animal care.  They back their pets with a health guarantee.  If they weren’t concerned about the pet and the new owner why would they do this? To be realistic every animal has its own immune system and is subject to whatever infectious virus’s that it may be exposed to regardless of whether it comes from a shelter or a retail store.  Our children get ill many times during their development, are we to assume that it is because of bad breeding?  Perhaps the parents are responsible for passing an inferior immune system to their children?  Of course not.  Where there is health there is also sickness.  It is a fact of life. MMR mentions the Hunte Corporation in his post pointing out how clean the floors are.  No one in the world does a better job or has a higher commitment in raising the bar than Hunte.  My question is simply this, isn’t that what everyone should be doing?  If everyone operated at this level there wouldn’t have been a story for them to tell.  Because they have an immaculate facility always clean and sanitized, does this somehow not fall in line with the picture HSUS wants to paint of breeders or distributors?  The real issue is not about the size but about the care.  Many breeders have very impressive breeding programs, breeding for breed conformity, genetics, and temperament and socialize their dogs daily.  Don’t let a few bad apples spoil the efforts and commitments that go on each day breeding the best pet for your home. The HSUS has an agenda, don’t be fooled by them.

I was driving last night and listening to the radio (John Tesh was on), and he said that 1 of 20 pets are returned to shelters and rescues where they came from.  (He didn’t say where he got the info, just that it was according to the Associated Press)  If you figure out the number of adoptions (versus purchases from pet stores or breeders) there are in this country, that return number is staggering.  I wonder if the return rate on puppies from pet stores or breeders is anywhere close to that number.  I would highly doubt it.  If HSUS has only gotten 50 complaints in all the puppies Petland sells, you are right to be completely unimpressed with that “fact,” David.

I really want to track down where Tesh got his info as that tidbit if verifiable is priceless in this war between “adopt vs buy.”

Here’s something that’s been bugging me….Mike says he got busted because word got around about how was saying he was interested in buying dogs, but never bought any. Ok, why didn’t he buy any? Yea, it would of made the investigation cost more, but HSUS has the money and doesn’t “willing to do anything” include spending more money? It would of given him the credibility he needed to not get caught, or at least not as quick as he did.

Furthermore, HSUS could of gotten a lot of publicity off of any bought dogs as having been rescued from a puppy mill. They could of had them thoroughly examined by a vet and even DNA testing done. Think of the how much good press they could of gotten if any of the dogs purchased to be breeding stock had something like luxating patellas, hip dysplacia, cataracts or progressive retinal atrophy, much less a contagious disease like distemper, giardia, parvo or even worms! So why didn’t they actually have Mike purchase a few dogs and rescue them from the puppy mills??? !!!!!

Ann - You asked WHY DIDN’T HSUS BUY SOME DOGS AND RESCUE THEM?

The answer is what it always is:
    HSUS IS NOT ABOUT HELPING ANIMALS.
    HSUS IS ABOUT THE MONEY.

HSUS never takes care of the animals.

It is really quite simple.

What I want to know is-

Who was doing the videos of Mike doing videos?

How many people were following him around?

How can you “sell” a story if you have an entourage?

OR

Was it all staged?

@ Ann Chantrel, my bet is Mike doesn’t LIKE dogs and for sure didn’t want to have to take CARE of one on his travels, it is a PITA you know (if you show then you know <G>) he didn’t have the right vehicle to keep them warm or cool with a generator! 

THEN my pennies have to make the bet that H$U$ has no clue how we go to do eye tests from pups to old dogs! and PRA doesn’t show up that early in the breeds I’m familiar with (6-8 weeks old which also are a real drag traveling and an older “breeder”??? EEEEEK that might could have had a true reading on an eye test, remember PRA is PROGRESSIVE so it might have not been a good diagnosis!  cataracts, unless they are Congenital and in the nucleus of both eyes may have shown up but other eye problems…..back to I doubt they’d even be aware of our specialists <G> and some take WEEKS to get in!

Doesn’t mean I don’t agree with you but just my thoughts.

I can tell you why they don’t try to get pet shops like petland to purchase from hobby breeders. Its because they do not support the sale of dogs in such places that come from a breeder. To them the only good pet shop is one that sells only dry goods, no live animals. wish I had a petland to shop at near me for small animal supplies. :( to them only rescued animals should be sold at pet shops. Which I have no problem with if they weren’t so dang rabid about it. Like offering rabbits and other small animals when the customers wouldn’t be able to afford the adoption prices.

Is this program due to be repeated? Due to scheduling conflicts, I couldn’t watch last night, and I can’t find it “On Demand” (I have Comcast).

Thanks,
Kristal

I looked up the so-called “Missouri Blue Ribbon Kennel Program.” It’s a joke. It may help ensure that the kennels have been inspected, but good grief! Look at the kennels themselves!

Are they breeding to the standard? Are the parents tested for genetic problems common to the breed? Are they showing or working their dogs to demonstrate the dogs’ value to a breeding program?

HECK NO. They’re breeding “teacups” and “off” colors (colors not permitted in the breed), and crossbreeding…

If a family just wants a nice pet, and they don’t care about the breed standard or the pedigree, why NOT go to a shelter? Pet stores charge a LOT of money for puppies that aren’t even purebred, let alone good representatives of their breed. If you don’t CARE if a puppy actually looks like the breed it supposedly is, why not just go to a shelter or rescue?

Krystal, try looking on Hulu.com

Janelle, I think most of us nasty people who don’t get tickled about pet store puppies, aren’t all that tickled about rescues being in pet stores either, many of those have “baggage” and sooooo…....(Yes I have done that too)  Speaking for myself, only, I feel that one can get a feel for people to be sure the animal that is available for a pet home needs to be “right” for the home coming available!

I have absolutely no problem with other pets, rabbits, lizards, pocket pets being sold, I just hope they are not just sold without some type of assessment, you know, not a little child that will get hurt or will kill the animal…..and I cross my fingers when I say that!

OH, my breed is one that they try to make “rare” (we call it DQ) into a mega bucks animal….I can’t stand that, too many years loving great dogs that are more correct and getting closer to “perfect” every time I start with a new one….but some people don’t get it when you say NO its BAD BREEDING….wrong, can’t be pure bred, they don’t come in that color!

Parent Clubs (most of them) have codes of ethics that we sign agreeing to many things, not the least of which is we won’t sell to a pet store….not in those words but we don’t do “commercial” to let our pets go.

The really SICK thing is we make very little, if anything on what we don’t keep and show, most of us!, but a poorly bred one with bad earcrop and not all the shots, no eye test, ....costs more at a pet store than from most show breeders!

@Mary Lou

Mike was trying to buy adults for breeding, not puppies, old enough for quite a few hereditary problems to be showing up.  And the version of PRA, CPRA that labs get does show up very young.

Yea, it would of complicated things if Mike had bought any dogs to take care of them - especially since they don’t have any actual shelters! - but I would of thought the publicity for actually rescuing some dogs along with the mega mileage they could of gotten out any actual health problems would of been motivation to do it.  Somebody could of met up with Mike at his motel and taken the dog.

I guess it just does show that they really don’t care about the dogs when all the publicity benefits aren’t enough to do a little bit extra.  Yea, they are willing to do “whatever it takes” but just not that!

Problem is the word “mill” is popping up from all the backyard owners and hobby people who think all animals are pets.

I have seen over the years, if a person breeds over 5 horses they think they are a horsemill.

Next will be cattle.  Breed over 10 head and people will be calling you a cowmill because your feeding the retail distribution stream.

I definitely agree that there is some nasty stuff going on here, and probably at other animal/ and environmental/ welfare groups I subscribe and donate to.
BIT - to me, it is wrong to breed dogs and cats (and horses) for sale, when there are already more than enough in shelters who are pining for a home. 

HSUS should play fair, tell the truth, etc.; and hence I am unsubscribing.  BUT - Who is now going to call attention to the FACT that breeders 1) are not the best people to make sure an adoption “works” because they are in it for the money; 2) are contributing to homelessness and abandonment of cats and dogs by further stressing an already overpopulated pet supply?

Geri’s Mom -
I looked at the Missouri Blue Ribbon kennels, too, but I see differently than you:

There are only 10 kennels that have earned the Blue Ribbon Kennel Award out of hundreds of licensed breeders in Missouri so this is a BIG DEAL - not a joke.

The Double J Kennel had pictures of one of its dogs getting Best of Breed and a 3-point major at an AKC show. It doesn’t get much better than that. They have been a Blue Ribbon Kennel since 2005. Folks, you don’t get this and then sit on your laurels. You have to earn it every year. This is hard work and a serious commitment.

The Cadillac Kennel had an outdoor play area with enough equipment for a daycare center. Looks like those Yorkies were practicing for agility. Who knew! AND there are pages and pages of testimonials from happy puppy owners.

Loeb-A-Rosa Kennels were featured in an article in the St. Louis Post Dispatch (3-23-09): “The kennel is an odor-free, low-volume operation with natural light, soft-coated cage flooring that’s easy on paws, and a play area and swimming pool for canine exercise and fun. It is part of a state Blue Ribbon program of 11 elite kennels that are held to higher standards.” Yes sir, this is really awful – NOT.

The Rockledge Kennels breed Irish Terriers: “In addition to pet and companion homes we have placed puppies in police work, therapy work, forestry service and now even the movies.” They bred one of the dogs who “acted” in the movie Firehouse Dog. And again there are many testimonials on how wonderful their dogs are.

Folks, you can see for yourselves
http://mda.mo.gov/animals/ACFA/blueribbon/

Click on this link and then the kennels listed at the bottom page.

I think you will see what I see.

Problem with the “don’t buy because animals are in shelters” ignores the fact that this is a free country, and we are not forced to take or buy anything just because. Shall we force people to all adopt foster kids because there are “too many” of them? To subscribe to the belief that buying is wrong because of shelter animals means you might as well plant weeds so you can pull ‘em.

It is an animal rights emotional ploy to make buyers feel guilty. It has never worked on thinking people. It may work on uneducated people or those emotionally indoctrinated by viewing too much HSUS nonsense videos.

A puppy mill definition should be, ANY breeder who produces puppies purely for profit with NO regard for the physical AND MENTAL conditions of their animals.  If someone can have 20 breeding pairs and hire enough people to play with, socialize and give the dams, sires and puppies a good quality life, with a clean living environment, well then so be it.

Puppy mills are the MAIN reason for pet overpopulation.  If we eliminated all puppy mills and ALL hobby breeders, and all Backyard Breeders, eventually no one would have any pets.

@Hannah Lee—you have been drinking the HSUS/PETA kool-aid for too long.  There is no “overpopulation crisis”.  We euthanize fewer animals every year now than we did 30 years ago.  There are 4 TIMES as many people looking for a new pet than are euthanized in shelters and “humane societies” every year.  THERE IS SIMPLY NO EXCUSE TO MURDER A HEALTHY, SOCIALIZED ANIMAL, PERIOD.  If you want the truth, go to No Kill Nation, or look up “Nathan Winograd”.

As to us “greedy breeders”—-I breed a very rare breed of cat that has existed as is in it’s native country for over 2000 years.  In the 20 years I have bred them, I HAVE NEVER MADE A PROFIT.  In fact, I have been told by the IRS that I cannot file as a business because of my continuing losses—I must file as a hobby.  I breed to a standard—I have had multiple cats in top 3 of my breed, and a National breed winner and National Winner.  I breed just a few litters a year, kittens are raised in my house, underfoot, and I have many times sold kittens to people that acquired kittens from me previously.  In fact, I am placing a kitten with someone this year who got his first cat from me 14 years ago.

In addition to my pedigreed cats, I have several rescue in my house that I took because the shelters would have killed them WITHOUT EVEN LOOKING FOR THEIR OWNERS, which should be a crime.  I know these cats had owners, and were simply lost—they were too good a shape and too well socialized.

The reason so many animals are killed in shelters every year is the fault of the shelters themselves, period.  I know Peta and HSUS try to blame everything else, especially us “evil breeders”, but they are lying to you.  Stop drinking their kool-aid.

Instead of blaming breeders, why don’t people blame the people actually responsible for dumping their pets?

If Bob breeds a German Shepherd and gives a puppy to Billy, how is it Bob’s fault when Billy gets bored and dumps the dog on the side of the road?

Unless breeders are breeding so many dogs that they cannot care for them properly and abandon them themselves, its silly to blame them.

It’d be similar to blaming and vilifying a couple who chooses to have their own children and say it is their fault that there are kids in foster care/orphanages.  Or maybe even blaming someone for a child dying in some other country because they chose to spend their money on a movie ticket instead of donating to Feed the Children.

The problem with the ‘why not go to a shelter’ argument is that it presumes that ALL DOGS ARE EXACTLY the same, interchangeable and that the reasons for wanting one are exactly the same, interchangeable. Dogs are not interchangeable and neither are the reasons people have for wanting a particular type, or their requirements of their pet.

Valley Fever…...I thought about that disease during the liveblog but forgot about it but one wonders, could those PUPPIES IN ARIZONA have had that?...here is a link to Valley Fever, one can go to one that says CANINE but I’m here to tell you that a couple of years ago my parent club donated funds toward working to fight that disease!

http://phoenix.about.com/cs/health/a/valleyfever01.htm

I don’t suppose the VET out there thought of that????? or hmmmm???

I have worked both sides of the fence. Started out working in a shelter. I now manage a kennel for a Petland store. I absolutely love my job. I love animals. My owners go out of there way to make sure that the breeders we use are so above board that it is amazing. They visit ALL of the places I order from. Our standards are extremely high and he even goes to the state capital to help write laws to stop puppy breeders that shouldn’t even own pets let alone breed them. Petland never refuses to take back an animal if the family can no longer take care of it for ANY reason. We will always find it a new home thru our Adopt A Pet program. Microchips and their registration are so important. What they don’t tell you about the program is that only 4% of puppies actually come from pet stores. So anyone want to hazard a guess where the others are coming from? Internet? Private Breeders? If the HSUS had their way no one would have any pets at all! That is their main goal. They want to spay/neuter all pets so that eventually there aren’t anymore. They freely admit that. I can’t imagine my life without my animals in it. They are members of my family.

Gari’s mom- so an “irresponsible breeder” does not check for genetic defects, does not breed towards breed standards.  Your solution; go to a shelter?  Please post any shelter that does those things.  As far as the expense of buying a pet from a pet shop, seems a heck of a lot better buy to me then paying the outrageous “fee” a lot of “rescues” charge.  Paint me evil, but I would rather pay for a pet that has been scrutinized, rather then buy one..oops “adopt” one that is MUCH more likely to be sick being intermingled with dogs from many origins.  Not to mention the ethical struggle I would personally have knowing that “rescued” dog was most likely stolen…opps again, I mean “rescued, from another person all in the name of propaganda films.

Breeders, shelters, pet stores, and everything else out there offering you puppies is vastly different. In order to really understand what you are talking about you have to have the right terminology. Shelters have puppies. RESPONSIBLE breeders have puppies. IRRESPONSIBLE breeders and pet stores have product. Puppy mills sell product to pet stores who then sell product to you. This is the difference that is not acknowledged here. If you want to get a shelter dog or buy from a pet store is up to you. I don’t want anyone here to think I’m on HSUS’s side here, because they’re terrible. I just want this clarified.

If I were a breeder, as a business person I would solely focus on breeding the dogs and selling them. Genetic defects wouldn’t make a difference to me, because I would be focusing on the product. Yes this Shiba Inu has hip dysplasia, but she cost me 400 dollars. She has to have enough puppies to recoup that cost. This is puppy mill mentality. A responsible breeder would instead take this dog out of their breeding stock and notify the owners of any offspring previously sold from that dog. As a result, the cost of the puppy coming from a mill might be 100 dollar and the cost of the same breed of dog coming from a responsible and careful breeder is going to higher to recoup the cost. So, If I’m now the owner of a pet store I have two of the same product in my mind and one is only 100 dollars. I know in this market I’ll only sell a shiba for 500 dollars. I’m getting the 100 dollar dog to optimize profits.

These are businesses. No one is scrutinizing pet store puppies. Don’t make a mistake and take the word of a pet store, because that is just as bad as HSUS. Both are about money, not puppies.

I have purchased well bred purebred dogs as well as saved dogs from shelters. of my purebreds, a champion sired cocker died of cancer at age 3, but was healthy as a baby. my champion sired bulldog has a rare and potentially deadly intestinal disease, so rare no links to any breed are found on research. he nearly died in his first six months with us and before his first birthday. those two came from responsible breeders. my shelter dogs, 3 to date, include two that came home with parvo and were in the ICU in 8 hours of arriving at their new home. one died of congestive heart failure. I think that the potential for an animal to come out of a shelter with a serious life threatening disease is as likely as a pet store dog having a life threatening infection. I in no way support puppy mills or petstores. I think all dogs should be as pampered as mine, but the reality is that some come from “farms” and only exist to make money for the “breeder” and shop owner. I too would like to know the actual percentage of puppy store dogs that are ill at time of purchase, and how severe the illness is.

“HSUS could even publish an online directory of “acceptable” and “conscientious” dog breeders, and then pressure pet stores to only buy from breeders on its list. Why haven’t we seen this from HSUS? It’s a no-brainer to me. Puppy mills would get drummed out of the business when no one buys what they’re selling—or at least no one will pay much for it. “

I have an additional answer for that one, David.  What ethical breeder in their right mind would want their name associated with HSUS?  Seems like it would just be encouraging a John Goodwin type to come in for an “inspection” and victimize another family.

People impulse buy pet store puppies and many of these dogs are dumped at shelters/rescues when the newness wears off. 
I mentioned those who are feeding the retail distribution stream.
Posted by MMR on 05/18 at 04:14 PM

How many dogs are bought at stores that end up in rescues vs. dogs bought through newspaper ads, breeders, and websites? So few dogs are actually sold in stores, comparatively, it just does not add up. Over 85% of dogs purchased(in my area, at least) are from newspaper ads of either breeders(a few), or individuals who smuggle PUPPY MILL dogs in from Mexico(the majority). If someone spends $500-$800 on a dog from a store, they are more likely to be serious about wanting a dog, and keeping it, than someone who pays $100-250 from a newspaper ad.

These are businesses. No one is scrutinizing pet store puppies. Don’t make a mistake and take the word of a pet store, because that is just as bad as HSUS. Both are about money, not puppies.
Posted by Anoka Blaze on 05/23 at 01:36 PM

So you’re saying that pet stores don’t care about animals? Yes, there are some pet stores out there that that mentality is exactly right(puppy=inventory). But a good portion of stores, and particularly the ones that have been around a while, actually care about animals, or they wouldn’t stay in the business.
On the other hand, to take it strictly from the business-people point of view, wouldn’t pet stores be interested in repeat customers? Someone who buys an inferior animal is going to tell all their friends and sometimes even the local news about how awfully sick and deformed their dog is, and how ripped off they were. While someone who gets a great, healthy animal, and who is advised on proper nutrition, training, and care is more likely to recommend that store to their friends, family, and neighbors.
Also a pet store would not offer the kind of health guarantee(or warranty, if you prefer) on their animals if it had to be “cashed in” all the time, since this would not be profitable.

My son recently bought a Huskey from Petland and after hearing the horror stories about Petland I insisted on taking him to the vet. My vet gave him a GLOWING Health report. She said the puppy was beautiful and in perfect health. The store employee who sold the pup gave my son her email address and asked him to keep her updated about his progress, she really cared about that puppy.
This experience was wonderful and flies in the face of all those Petland naysayers. My “grand puppy” is truly a blessing to the family and MUCH healthier than either of the dogs I adopted from Humane Society (I spent nearly as much on my those dogs to get them healthy after adoption as he spent on his purebred from Petland).

I watched the show and yes some of the conditions they showed were horrible.
But come on people, some of these dogs had upper respiratory infections. Kennel cough is highly contagious and people who have owned dogs should know even vaccinating is not a guarantee the puppy won’t contract it. Parvo is also something that there is no guarantee against especially as a puppy not having the entire series of vaccinations.

So should it be Petland or a breeders fault if they’ve given the puppy age-appropriate vaccinations and the new owner wants to show their puppy off at the park or take it to people’s homes, etc. and expose the puppy to Parvo?

Worms is something any animal owner should know is something you have to stay on top of, that’s why vets start worming puppies at such a young age and continue with the wormings.

My sister adopted a dog from a shelter that was supposed to have had all it’s shots, been wormed, spayed, etc. The dog had a bad case of kennel cough, tapeworms and an infection in it’s incision from being spayed and put back out with other dogs laying on concrete. She spent hundreds of dollars getting the dog well, yet she didn’t threaten to sue the shelter.

I watch some of the Animal Cops shows on Animal Planet and am shocked how they can just go onto private property the way they do. Sometimes the animals are in poor shape but I have also watched them take people’s horses and all the horses but one will look healthy. As someone who was raised around horses, I know you can have an older horse that is hard to keep weight on. They’ll always show some of the horses later but never all of them.

You can love animals without not believing animals are more important than humans and IMO animal rights activists don’t see it that way.

When it’s easier for someone to be able to knock down your door and take your animals than it is for officials to be able to take abused children out of a home, something is really screwed up in our country.